Curse

Cebe · Sep 19, 2007, 09:56 AM // 09:56

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Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

So on that basis... /signed.

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Originally Posted by Etta

But only for hardmode or max it out first before you can use it anywhere...in hardmode.

Actually, /signed on that condition.

SotiCoto · Sep 19, 2007, 10:52 AM // 10:52

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Originally Posted by draxynnic

Besides, I tend to think of the titles as partly being attunement to the energies of the land - the Heart of the Norn isn't just a random health bonus but is the character's attunement to the power of Bear (and/or Wolf or Raven), while Edification is learning to attune to the high magic saturation of the Mursaat ruins of the Tarnished Coast and the Asura projects since. Thought of it that way, there's actually an in-game reason why they aren't portable - the Norn animal spirits have their places of power in the Far Shiverpeaks, not in (for example) Kourna.

Plot-related.
The ONLY valid reason so far for keeping them out of the rest of the game so far..... THANK YOU draxynnic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

I use them because they're there. It would make no sence to not use a free bonus handed to you, whether you think the game is hard or not.

Of course I'd use them if it was implemented, I'm sure a lot of people would. Just because we would use it doesn't mean we want it, or that we support it.

That isn't how A-Net would view it.
And honestly, if that is the attitude you hold to then you have nobody but yourself to blame for the ease of the game.

Imagine this hypothetical scenario:
A-Net ... having got tired of maintaining Guild Wars and whatnot.... put a button into the game that will instantly render your party invincible for as long as you want... and perhaps a button that will insta-kill whatever enemies you're looking at.
Would you press those buttons just because they're there? I sure as hell wouldn't.

You'll find that both in Guild Wars and life... there are many things that are "just there"... but it doesn't mean you have to use them... ESPECIALLY when their effect is entirely contrary to your intents. You do have a choice there, in as much as one can assume choice exists at all. Nobody is forcing you to play a certain way... so you've got no business complaining about it if you DO play that way.

Disagree?

The title effects... be they Norn, Asura or Lightbringer..... are merely crutches. They are crutches to help those who can't (or won't) walk on their own. They are entirely unnecessary to someone whose legs, metaphorically speaking, are working just fine.... but that doesn't mean there aren't people who could really do with them.

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Theres no reason why you cannot appreciate the game if it was a challenge. By challenge I don't mean something super hard, I mean something that requires you to actually focus on. For most people I've seen talking about GWEN, that's the problem. You can beat it without doing much player wise.

Different people require different levels of focus... and consider different things "difficult". I'd imagine... since you associate with other particularly experienced and game-competant people... that it is entirely natural for them to find it easy. If you were hanging around Kaineng Marketplace and fraternising with the newbies... you might be seeing different opinions expressed (if you could even understand their primitive language).

Odd as it may sound... I think most of normal mode PvE is exactly the right difficulty level. Some bits are a bit tougher, some a bit less so. I find Hard Mode too difficult, as do I the Elite Areas (even in Normal)...
Though almost certainly I'm worse at the game than you are.... even if I weren't I would probably still have the same opinion because I'm a different person with different values and judge my surroundings differently.

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Sadly, there is no game shaped in the image of something a player wants. Sure, I'd love some things changed too, but it doesn't work like that. The Devs make the decision, which could be based on something a majority of players want.

Maybe with some parts... but not so much with others. People wouldn't play games at all if they had no choice. Interaction itself is a choice. The A-Net devs effectively have to try and find the balance between a totally linear and forced experience where everything is controlled.... and a totally free environment where players feel lost for choice and devoid of guidance.
Players are finicky things.... Generally, while on one hand we want to be able to make choices and feel like we personally have something to add.... we also want a great deal just served up to us without our having to make any more complex decision than whether we'll accept it or not.
And the fact is.... being individuals with differences, some will err on the side of more freedom (myself) while others will err more on the side of a guided and provided game (yourself)... A-Net ideally need to cater to both sides...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Because they figured it was the best way to keep the PvE crowd interested until GW2 comes out? They needed more titles for the KoaBD track? The majority of people enjoy grind? I dunno, but they had their reasons for making it this way whatever it may be. When the favor system was changed, a lot of people were fairly upset thinking it would be so rare but it turns out pre-GW:EN the god realms were open 24/7. They get their numbers somehow, feedback, whatever and determined that grinding out titles is what everyone wants.

My guess anyway.

I'll tell you why A-Net put the grind in: A substitute for their own fading creativity.
I know from personal experience that it is hard to remain inspired, new and fresh forever. One cannot keep coming up with new and engaging content on a constant basis.... not least when what takes days or weeks to make can be basically plowed through by a player and their herohench in 5 minutes with a remark of "that's done then".
Sooner or later... everyone would start looking for shortcuts... ways they can do less work for more feedback.
The result is the grind. It has very little actual content to it.... but takes a bloody long time and a lot of repetition.... It can keep a person occupied for weeks while only taking a few hours to implement.

While I'm sure A-Net wanted a grind-free environment.... sooner or later everyone will cave to laziness if there is a constant demand for more and more content. It is inevitable.... and honestly, they need to be given a bit of slack.

akh · Sep 19, 2007, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Easy solution - full effect in norn/asura/vanguard territory, half the bonus outside.

SotiCoto · Sep 19, 2007, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by akh

Easy solution - full effect in norn/asura/vanguard territory, half the bonus outside.

Conditional nonsense unneeded.... otherwise it might as well be 10% effect for each of having an enchant, a stance, a hex, a condition, a shout, a chant, a speed boost, being drunk, wearing the right armour... and who knows what else?

It just makes more work for A-Net.

I'll just re-iterate that I'd LIKE to use my Norn title anywhere and everywhere..... but I don't NEED it and won't be devastated if nothing is changed.
The amount of difference it would make would be minimal anyway.

ryanryanryan0310 · Sep 19, 2007, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Isn't the game already too easy?

/not signed forever.

....omg even Racthoh's doing it.

Bryant Again · Sep 19, 2007, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Yeah /signed on maxing it out completetly before being able to use it.

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Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

The consumables (as others have mentioned) give an advantage in older campaigns, by being able to remove all DP and protect against critical hits and ress the entire team at once. That would give a huge advantage in previous elite zone, during farming, vanquishing and end game missions.

Consumables and candy canes can be traded though, can't they? Titles can't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

The title effects... be they Norn, Asura or Lightbringer..... are merely crutches. They are crutches to help those who can't (or won't) walk on their own. They are entirely unnecessary to someone whose legs, metaphorically speaking, are working just fine.... but that doesn't mean there aren't people who could really do with them.

But isn't our intention to help those people, to bring them off those crutches? If the title could be universal, I feel like it would just encourage to stay on them.

pkodyssey · Sep 19, 2007, 12:20 PM // 12:20

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Originally Posted by Skuld

You're thinking as a player who owns all the campaigns.

WHAT!, there are people who don't own all 3 campaigns?

SotiCoto · Sep 19, 2007, 01:06 PM // 13:06

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Consumables and candy canes can be traded though, can't they? Titles can't.

Given that people will charge 50 gold just to open the gate to the northlands in Pre-Searing.... do you seriously think that having given up a skill point and invested a fair amount of resources in a consumable item.... that person wouldn't try to sell it for a profit?
The end result is that those without GW:EN cannot get such things at their original prices.... but instead have to pay an indeterminate amount more for them. That is to say nothing of the trouble of finding someone willing to trade them in the first place.

Quote:

But isn't our intention to help those people, to bring them off those crutches? If the title could be universal, I feel like it would just encourage to stay on them.

Encouragement doesn't really come into it. They will choose for themselves whether they want to take them off or not.... and I'd personally say that using such things even if you don't want them there is a sign of weak will.
Not only that... but some will end up being "crippled" for their entire duration in the game... so it wouldn't even be appropriate to try to ween them off that which allows them to enjoy the game like everyone else.

The only real way to help someone is to let them do what they want to do.... Anything else is just imposing your will on them.

Bryant Again · Sep 19, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Encouragement doesn't really come into it. They will choose for themselves whether they want to take them off or not.... and I'd personally say that using such things even if you don't want them there is a sign of weak will.
Not only that... but some will end up being "crippled" for their entire duration in the game... so it wouldn't even be appropriate to try to ween them off that which allows them to enjoy the game like everyone else.

The only real way to help someone is to let them do what they want to do.... Anything else is just imposing your will on them.

So you honestly believe that some people will never get better at the game, or be able to find other ways to success? If that is your belief, than I guess I can't argue with you.

freekedoutfish · Sep 19, 2007, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Consumables and candy canes can be traded though, can't they? Titles can't.

If I understand your statement there. Are you saying consumables are ok to use in previous campaigns because they can be used to trade and make profit? If im right, doesnt that prove my point about people favourism consumables because the only require gold!

That would suggest that im right in thinking people are purely against this idea because either they wont make profit on it, or they cant simply buy it! I've only seen reasons against this idea, because people have to work to make the Status effects stronger!

While people are fine with consumables and candy canes being used in all campaigns because they either get them free or can buy them!

So again the rich are fine (because they can buy hand fulls of consumables)... while the poor suffer (because they cant). Just adding to the rich-poor devide! IMO the status effects are actually more fair then the consumables. The status effects only require earning points and grinding (something we all can do), while consumables require large amounts of gold to buy them in bulk.

Consumables are a rich-mans luxary and a poor-mans necessity!

Status effects are usable by all, regardless of wealth! It makes no sense to allow consumables to be used in all aspects of the game, but not status effects! Consumables could be used by low-end players and make it far easier to progess at low levels! Status effects can only be used by high end players from GWEN who are already maxed out.

End result =

The rich can buy handfulls of consumables and make their personal gameplay and the gameplay of low-end characters, aloteasier.

The poor cant afford consumables, and make do with less effective candy canes and less of them! Their lives are still a headache!

Solution =

Make status effects work throughout the entire game to give the poor players more of an edge!

R!ghteous Ind!gnation · Sep 19, 2007, 02:51 PM // 14:51

no thanks

/notsigned

SotiCoto · Sep 19, 2007, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

So you honestly believe that some people will never get better at the game, or be able to find other ways to success? If that is your belief, than I guess I can't argue with you.

It happens, for one reason or other.
Heck... some people just don't stick around long enough to get better. Others just never move into situations where they would have anything to learn.

Mordakai · Sep 19, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

End result =

The rich can buy handfulls of consumables and make their personal gameplay and the gameplay of low-end characters, aloteasier.

The poor cant afford consumables, and make do with less effective candy canes and less of them! Their lives are still a headache!

Solution =

Make status effects work throughout the entire game to give the poor players more of an edge!

This is an excellent point.

I don't think that Title Track bonuses need to be extended to other Chapters, but I can't think of any reasonable argument that they shouldn't.

We already have PvE skills that unbalance the game, so that argument is moot.

They are already consumables that can be bought and traded across campaigns, so the argument that it should be limited to one campaign is moot.

Until someone can come with a rational argument, I'm gonna have to agree with freakedoutfish. Why not?

/signed

Off Topic: I liked your old avatar better.

Bryant Again · Sep 19, 2007, 03:02 PM // 15:02

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Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Heck... some people just don't stick around long enough to get better. Others just never move into situations where they would have anything to learn.

And to them I say "l2p." I'm sorry, but I won't be sympathetic to people who don't want to learn more about how the game works.

TabascoSauce · Sep 19, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

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Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Make status effects work throughout the entire game to give the poor players more of an edge!

The people you are arguing with, and let me put in the word "may" here - may be entitlement junkies.

Really, if a player is winning the game anyway, what does extra health or power do? Nothing. It will not make a difference in their game play experience, since they are already winning. They have other motives for screaming "no".

Maybe they get some kind of power kick out of the idea that they can win the game, and haunt forums to seek and mock others who cannot. That is a sick mindset and they need professional help, really. The really sad part is that the whole basis for the game is the rock/paper/scissors trick/countertrick paradigm, so if a PvE mob or Boss is using paper, they just need the scissor skills. I have been reading the difficulty complaint threads, and the players having difficulty are always lacking skills. Of course, as the height of hubris they imply that the other player is deficient, when more likely they have a job or other priorities, besides GW, and lack time.

Of course, they could also just be annoying weenies as well.

I really do not see a good spin for the people who say in one thread "lrn2play" and in another "OMG ONOES dont make the game easier!!!!!!!11!!one!" without offering a shred of assistance to people in builds or tips.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

glountz · Sep 19, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

I don't really care anymore. Thanks to grinded PVE skills, GW's has already become an absolute imba grindfest.
/Signed, for what it will change.

YunSooJin · Sep 19, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

could you guys stop referring to PvE and balance? It's laughable to even think that PvE has balance in the first place. Canvassing the mass of opinions on whether an area is 'too hard' or 'too easy' is not balance, sorry.

freekedoutfish · Sep 19, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

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Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

The people you are arguing with, and let me put in the word "may" here - may be entitlement junkies.

Really, if a player is winning the game anyway, what does extra health or power do? Nothing. It will not make a difference in their game play experience, since they are already winning. They have other motives for screaming "no".

......

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Then I dont see the issue with my idea! In PvE you can play the game however you want, and if you want extra health or extra energy then why not?

But are you agreeing with me, because I cant seem to tell!!!

It seems like you are and in which case OMG. But just because one person wants really challenging game, with out any advantages doesnt mean the next player does.

The other player might want a really casual gameplay and consumables, candy canes and status effects give them that!

And my main arguement now is basically... if they allow consumables to be used throughout the entire game, then there is no reason not to do the same with the status effects.

Removing DP gives a much greater edge in PvE then increasing health and energy!

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

could you guys stop referring to PvE and balance? It's laughable to even think that PvE has balance in the first place. Canvassing the mass of opinions on whether an area is 'too hard' or 'too easy' is not balance, sorry.

I couldnt agree more, especially since most people are complaining about aspects (such as pve only skills, consumables and titles and status effects) which are completely pve only.

This means their use and effects are completely personalised to that individual and their gaming experience. Yes you can join a PUG and it will benefit them too, but even so! That is your choice about how to play and its their choice to allow you to join them.

People seem to forget that GWs is also a solo experience, and not just a PUGing game.

There are players who play alone and their gaming style has no impact on you and your gameplay, unless you join them and knowingly accept that gameplay experience!

If you dont want to play an easier game, then dont use those aspects which make it easier. If you want an easy game, then do use them! No ones forcing you otherwise!

trobinson97 · Sep 19, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Likewise, people don't see why you'd want them if we've been fine without them for so long.

I understand that. The thing is, what's so bad about having the option?

TabascoSauce · Sep 19, 2007, 04:18 PM // 16:18

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Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

But are you agreeing with me, because I cant seem to tell!!!

I agree with you. There is no logic behind the statement "The game is too easy as it is" since what amounts to a free (extra) health or power rune on every character is not going to alter the gameplay experience of someone who is winning already.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce